Vinyl Main Spar

Ask other modelers for a little help / knowledge ?

Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Balsa Pilot » Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:56 pm

Greetings to All!
Just embarked on building of kit 406LC The Focke-Wulf190 A-3.

Having read through the plans and build sheet several times I'm faced with a question. This is to be a rubber powered
"out-of-the-box" flier, and therefore I am trying to save weight where I can (of course).
The question is : Is the vinyl Main Spar a requirement for a "wheels-up" rubber powered flier? Obviously if the wheels were to be in the "down" position it's a no brainer, but, with wheels "up", or, (omitted) do I still need the vinyl?
The main spar is obviously for the strength of the wing, but I keep hearing how GUILLOW'S aircraft are over-engineered for strength,... thus the question.

Thanks in advance for your consideration!

Henry
Balsa Pilot
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:42 pm

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Mitch » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:36 am

I have ALWAYS used this main spar. My models are 'wheels up'. I suppose you can omit it but the notches are already in the ribs. What I do is trim this spar down just a little bit. Does not remove much weight but I trim is to change the dihedral of the wing. I INCREASE the dihedral just a little bit. Just so the top of the wingtips are under the bottom of the canopy.

With the FW I also dropped every other wing rib. So I only used F1, 2,4,6,8,10 and 12. I also cut out lighten holes in them (that may be excessive for a park flyer)

I also moved the rear peg forward one bay between B6 and 7. That will keep the mass of the rubber at the CG.

I also used a 9 inch Silver Peck prop. My latest FW was built for the Guillow Challenge so I used all kit wood and kit supplied paper. My model was cover with 2 coats of LusterKote then rattle cans of Tamiya paint.

Image

Here is a picture of the completed model before paint. I believe my best flight was 28 seconds. Model is now on display at a Local Hobby Shop.

PS Rudder is separate and front end is adjustable. You can find my build thread on this site.
Mitch
 
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:16 pm
Location: Kent, WA

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Mitch » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:41 am

My Bad... Looks like I gave wrong information. Just looked up my old build thread...

' 2015 Challenge, FW 190 "Red 13" '

Apparently on that build I did not use the plastic wing spar. As I was building this for the challenge, as you, I thought not necessary and extra weight. Looking though my build thread I filled in the cut outs in the wing ribs with 1/16 balsa from the kit.

The wings dihedral is set and is held together by the overlapping 1/16 wing spars.

For Rubber Power the wing is very strong. I ended up filling in the front section of the fuselage also. As I remember the model when finished was nose heavy. With the added rear wheel retracted extra weight that balanced the model.

Also looks like I moved the rear peg forward 2 Bays... But I would now only suggest move up 1 Bay as I said earlier.

I built this model over 1 year ago and forgot some of the features I did. I really liked using the Guillow paper. This is also the first flying model I built a plane from a famous Pilot. Although I did not paint the red fuselage band. Everything else is as per the Pilot Hans Bar. For my future planes I will copy and produce a model of a famous Ace.

Mitch

PS: FYI, I have successfully flown these 400 series kits with the supplied Guillow's rubber and Prop. With those models I did not have an adjustable front end. Flying with a larger propeller gives more torque and an adjustable nose block is recommended. You can see what I did in the build of 'Red 13"

Good Luck and Good Flying, I hope to see your finished model soon.
Mitch
 
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:16 pm
Location: Kent, WA

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Balsa Pilot » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:45 am

Mitch, thanks so much for your reply.

You clearly have more experience than I have. Remembering back to your "Red 13" thread, it would have been very good to incorporate the "every other rib idea". Of special interest is the front end, and how you built it, so I'll go back to your thread and pay special attention. Correct me if required, but it seems you recommend omission of the main spar for a park flyer?
The wing is already assembled, with the exception of the spar-you mentioned that you "trimmed it"-how so? Sandpaper to thin it or narrowing it in width?
For the weight I suppose its not a huge issue, anyways.
Say, that reminds me-do you know of a good place to get square magnets for construction and a metal "board"? I had the fuselage all set up nice and square/true, but didn't block the formers 'til they dried so now they are untrue and not square at all. While this is a great excuse to do it all over, I'd prefer next time to do it right the first time. Hahaha...It's all about the experience!

Thanks again for the help!
Henry
Balsa Pilot
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:42 pm

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Mitch » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:04 am

This was the last 400 series model I built. (I will build more) It seemed like every time I built on I tried to save a gram here or there. So this was the first attempt (I think) that I did not use that vinyl spar brace.

In previous models I increased the dihedral so I need to change the angle of that Vinyl spar. I used a metal ruler and X-acto knife with #11 blade and just slice off a thin sliver that I determined would make the angle that I want.

Magnets and metal building sheet are available from "Easybuiltmodels" you can Google them. I use there paper all the time. I also get my contest balsa from them. They have a lot of kits, but some of them are very old design. For beginners, I would say, stay with Guillow's until you want to build a model they do not have.

Other building tips: Washout in the wingtips is a good thing. The front end was built up with rings of balsa wood and finished off with plywood. 2 screws are for alignment so nose does not slip. 2 more screws at 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock are for adjustment. Basically down and to the right. Although a few years ago I built the Guillow models straight out of the box and with the 7 inch prop made my adjustments with the rudder.

I would finish the model that you started. I have built many models with fuselage frames not perfect. Once covered it will not look so bad. As long as the fuselage itself is straight you will be fine.

Mitch
Mitch
 
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:16 pm
Location: Kent, WA

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Balsa Pilot » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:52 am

Thanks Mitch, your insights are very much appreciated.
I'm already searching for the wood hole saws so I can put them in my dremel and start boring holes to lighten things up. I will check with Easybuilt models.com, I hope they ship to Canada!

Thanks to having read some of yours and others earlier posts washout is built into every airplane I build now. For previous front ends I'd used a square beam set up but the rings seem much more practical and easy to use. I will of course finish this one, as they are far too cool to waste, and expensive now as well($67.00 cdn!!!)
If I can EVER figure out how to post pictures there are a bunch I'd love to show-Wildcat-Guillows, C-170-Guillows, Druine Turbulent-Peck, Aichi Val-Dumas, Monocoupe-Sterling, and a Curtiss Robin-Dumas that really turned out well. The best I've ever been able to log is 37 seconds with a Peck "SkyBunny", and 32seconds with an Embryo from Peck as well- what an incredible feeling it is to watch your creation soar high above you. I have high hopes of the Turbulent doing well indoors-(sorry no pun)

Thanks again, really appreciate the help. Like you say Have fun keep flying!

Regards Henry
Balsa Pilot
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:42 pm

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Mitch » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:26 am

Can you mail order from Guillow's to Canada? If so Check out my build thread " Build a 400 series WW2 Fighter for less than $20 "
ALWAYS save your plans. Buy replacement parts from Guillow's. You only need a few sheets of laser cut balsa and a few plastic parts.
This works out real well on the 400 series, other kits end up almost the same price as a entire kit.

I would only order the Wing and Fuselage balsa sheets.

The model in that build thread was built 5 years ago... No thrust adjustment... and I won 3rd Place at WESTFAC... I was very LUCKY to get that.

Best flight was 38 seconds. The model is banged up quit a bit but I still have it, she also spent a year on display at my Local Hobby Shop.

Mitch
Mitch
 
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:16 pm
Location: Kent, WA

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Balsa Pilot » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:18 am

Mitch, thanks yet again.

Ordered a metal board and magnets yesterday, plus today I am going to pickup the aluminum to build my winding stooge. Great idea about ordering the sheets of relevant parts to rebuild-Doing that, right after this, so all is good and I hope to be able to soon show pictures of the whole squadron.
Also, your build thread of "under$20", had a ton of ideas, some really fascinating ideas in it- particularly the 2 popsicle sticks clamped over the fuselage formers to keep them aligned, so simple yet so effective : GREAT!!

Note: to anyone out there who has problems with alignment : Magnets are the way to build, straight and square makes a big difference. These days, when everything is so expensive you're way better to do it right the first time, rather than trust to luck. Like my of coach used to say,
"Smart players make their own luck"

Mitch-thanks again it all helps, maybe if you are coming to the eastern "Non-Nats" this year I can say hi!

Blue side up everyone-Happy New Year!
Henry
Balsa Pilot
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:42 pm

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Mitch » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:20 pm

Glad to help.

For photo upload use Photobucket. It is free (limited use). Click on share and use the IMG file

Here is White 2 going under repairs after a terrible crash in Denver.
Image

Here was my last Me109, with bent balsa tail... But still flew no better...maybe more rubber!!!
Image
Notice location of rear peg. Just in front of the Cross. Picture taken before rear peg inserted, but you can see the balsa support.
This model was finished before the Guillow Challenge but had too many alteration from the kit to qualify... My FW was built with all kit parts (Except for rubber and Prop and added the thrust adjustment, which was allowed in the rules.

and finally a picture of Red 13:
Image
Note the battle damage... I blew a motor in the model. Not pretty, lost a few pieces of balsa and split the paper (Just behind "13"), the force of the exposion also cracked the Canopy...WOW ! :shock: She flies this way now.

As I said I keep trying to make improvements with every build... Mitch

Keep Learning, Keep Building, Keep Flying :D
Mitch
 
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:16 pm
Location: Kent, WA

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Balsa Pilot » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:24 pm

Thanks Mitch! Those are very nice birds, my compliments- a question if you don't mind. In your previous thread you built the adjustable nose out of balsa rings- how did you cut the rings, and what thickness were they(individually)?
I always follow your builds closely, they are fun to look at plus the quality sets the bar for my own projects-each one gets a little better. Just got off the 'phone with Sue Murphy to order the new 'replacement' sheets, still trying to find those hole saws from Enkay - it's tough sometimes to get things shipped up here from the USA, but it's worth it.

Will try your advice on posting pictures to this site- oh! what do you use to take the picture, cellphone, camera, ??

Thanks again for your help!

Best Regards H
Balsa Pilot
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:42 pm

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Mitch » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:09 pm

Balsa Pilot... et al.

Thanks, I haven't built a flying model in a while.

1. I first found those little hole saws at a Hobby Town. I also see them in Micro Mark Catalog. Maybe you can ask your local hobby shop to order them. Before I found the hole saws I just used wood shaping bits in my Dremel tool and also the 2 sanding drum bits. You can also use a drill, but you will need to back up the wood part.

2. The built up balsa is from the thickest stock I get at a hobby shop. I think 1/4 inch. I cut out the doughnuts with hole saws from Milwaukee tools available at Home Depot or such. Those just build up the depth I need under the plastic cowl. I rotate the grain as I stack them up. I might need a thinner one to get the correct distance I want to the front of the cowling. The adjustment part is from 2 sheets of plywood in front of those. For those I use 1/8 inch as I need enough wood for the screws to get a bite into. Usually all that extra weight is not a factor as I need to balance the plane.

3. I just use a cheap digital camera with a USB cable and plug into the computer then download though Photobucket. You have to set up an account (free) and follow directions. There are 4 choices to upload to website...use IMG file. I have not used it much lately because I am reaching my 'free' limit.

Mitch

PS: I just use some Scotch tape to balance the props... you can see a few layers on the prop on 'Red 13'
Mitch
 
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:16 pm
Location: Kent, WA

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Walt » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:26 am

Another source for the small hole saws is Amazon.com
Just search for Enkay hole saws. They have a bunch of different brands and sizes.
https://www.amazon.com/Enkay-371-4C-Diamond-Carded-4-Piece/dp/B008BHX0XI

Hope this helps...Walt
You can do it if you have patience!
Walt
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:36 pm
Location: Westminster, California, USA

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Balsa Pilot » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:42 am

Mitch, a wealth of information as usual. Many thanks again. My LHS doesn't stock ENKAY or have a connection with MicroMark, yet! Whatever it takes! Will probably take Walt's advice and go through AMAZON, and thanks as well BTW!.

Your advice on the adjustable nose.1/4" cut with a hole saw sounds eminently do-able, so I'm off to the hardware store this afternoon.
I WILL get this picture thing sorted out I promise.

Well I'm off to do my volunteer bit at the shelter so have a great day, and talk soon!

Regards always

Henry

P.S. it's about -5' here, and if this wind calms down it would probably be worth a rip to the flying field just for a little cool weather flight or two! I'll try it on the way home!
Balsa Pilot
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:42 pm

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Mitch » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:13 pm

Decide ahead of time what sizes you need. The Milwaukee Hole saws can get pricey. I now have quite a collection as you want the outside as large as possible, so there is enough wood left when you cut out the inside. You want the inside hole large enough for ease of getting in the motor. Eventually you may want to use a blast tube so that is the deciding factor for the inside hole for me. Another way I have done it is just build it up with 1/4 inch stock and make squares. The doughnuts I first used in the FW and Zero, but if you make smaller ones they will fit in all the 400 series.

Today I am off to set up my module trains with my HO group. There is a model train show at the Pacific Science Center in Seattle for the 3 day weekend.

Mitch... Always having fun, Always helping friends, Always getting better :D
Mitch
 
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:16 pm
Location: Kent, WA

Re: Vinyl Main Spar

Postby Balsa Pilot » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:42 am

thanks Mitch. much appreciated, still trying to find someone to order the Enkay hole saws and will start with the bigger hole saws at Lowes or Home Depot tomorrow.
What a cool hobby! There is always something new to learn, and a different method for each task......
Finished covering the "display" fuselage and wings last night-they turned out awesome, and now waiting for the new sheets to arrive to build the "flying" fuselage and wings as soon as they arrive. I've been hoarding tongue depressors for the bulkhead clamps, and have just received the metal building board and will receive the magnets next Friday from my local(75miles) HS. I thought it prudent to order the 500LC series at the same time-it makes the drive more cost effective!

Thanks again for the tips! Very much appreciated.

Henry
Balsa Pilot
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:42 pm


Return to General Building Questions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests